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You have exposed a touchy subject to the church today—we do not really believe humans are depraved. We might not go so far as eBay but we go half way—we believe most people are good, or people are mostly good. I presented a sermon on human depravity last year and got crucified—I was too plain. For now I just keep quiet.
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I’ve had reservations about the idea of the depravity of man even since seminary. I just don’t see it in the world. I see some men depraved. I see some “bent to sinning” in most men. But I do not see it as persuasive or determinative. I think I increasingly believe that men and women are born with a blank slate and the capability of doing either good or evil. Life and other people influence our blank slates but it is up to us which way to turn with each temptation. While eBay goes too far with “people are good” I’d say “People are neutral” and it is up to them to decide for good.
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You are the one who should answer your own question—you Arminians are the ones who pander to the popular theology of the world. You have even said it in your writing: “Ask any person off the street and you’ll find they reject Calvinist assumptions as irrational.” That’s the point of course—the person “off the street” is darkened by sin and “naturally” is an Arminian. To hold to truth requires saying things that are irrational and unpopular—something you Arminians just can’t bring yourself to do. Which is why you have just about all the growing churches and we pastor static or declining ones. But while you may be popular, remember that we are right.
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I have already used the eBay clip in worship here—and the people loved it. I made the point that people can be good and if we all pitch in we can make a difference in the world. It was a moving service.
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This campaign reminds us that the church is a novice cheapskate when it comes to persuading people. A company like eBay is more effective at preaching theology than the church. Churches who refuse to launch efforts in quality video, graphics and communication are destined to be led along by secular companied like eBay who knows hw to communicate. Show me the church who commits 3% of their income to advertising. Churches don’t really care—they just say they care.
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I’ve been serving in a church where most people believe they are good. In the Methodist church I believe people have down played holiness so much and dismissed the teaching of original sin as obnoxious. I have been stuck in the trenches of mediocrity so long that I feel like screaming. I’ve been a voice for holiness. I believe that God wants us to live lives that are blameless and full of love for others. I fall in line with St. Paul and Augustine.
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I might lean towards eBay on this one but add that we do have this bent towards selfishness. Here’s my problem with Christians and their original/continual sin ideas: Many of them ONLY see the sin nature in people - “Lost” “Sinful” “Depraved” and fail to recognize OR acknowledge when someone (Christian or non) does something good or becomes someone better. Here’s my problem with eBay: They ONLY see that people are good despite a few bad apples and then fail to recognize the world’s deep bent towards greed, selfishness and charging too much for shipping. Yes, I want to acknowledge sin for sin and that humanity has a natural bent towards it...but I also want to acknowledge GOOD for what it is...the people who rebel against indifference, people who are full of compassion and kindness. We are sinful says Paul, but we were also CREATED IN THE IMAGE OF GOD. Doesn’t this say something about our natural bent towards GOOD??? May we recognize both and continue to help people out of one and into the other...
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You’ve used the people-are-good/people-are-bad choice to
raise the issue of original sin and depravity and that’s OK. The deeper
issue is whether all persons do good things or bad things instead of whether
they are either inclined to good or bad. I would tend to the side that
says we have some sort of disposition to do bad things even in spite of our
noblest desires to do what is good. This is probably close to an
“orthodox” understanding of original sin/inherited depravity. BUT, how then am I capable—even with this
inherited depravity—to do what is good? Sometimes even persons who
typically do that which is bad may do something that is good. Conversely,
sometimes persons who typically do that which is good may do something that is
very bad indeed. So as a proponent of truth, can I even broad
brush-stroke individuals as either good people or bad people. The
elephant over there in the corner with the mouse of original sin is free
will. And that elephant, by some generosity of God’s economy has the
capacity to stomp the mouse. However, according to fable the mouse
frightens the elephant. Original sin is not an excuse or a tyrant; it is
simply a matter of observing human nature. Shouldn’t our preaching and
teaching take into account that not only do we have the presence of original
sin on the negative side of the balance sheet, but that we have a formidable
ally of free will to use on the positive side. Let us not forget that
free will existed even before original sin was introduced into the equation of
human experience. Did depravity exist prior to the sin in the Garden
of Eden? Perhaps part of the message there is that original sin cannot be
used as an explanation for choices that I make, regardless of what Adam and Eve
did. My question is why the debate
often fixates more on the good/bad issue rather than the choice/accountability
one. I suspect it has something to do with our view of what the 3rd
chapter of Genesis is really about. Is it more about explaining the root
of all the bad in the world OR is it more about illustrating human doubt that
God IS good? Focusing on the question of whether people are good or bad
distracts us from that reality. And in contrast with God’s goodness, the
answer to your question is clear. J
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What a great debate question! In my
opinion, it's an assumption that non-christians have to confront before they
can be converted, because it is directly involved with the other assumption,
that good works or being a good person will get you into Heaven. There are
so many people who base their Christian faith on their belief in a God and the
fact that they are decent people. Ebay's video is a stacked deck example in
their favor. Of course people are good when they are gonna get money or goodies
out of it. Kinda like judging a kid's behavior only on how he minds his parents
the week before Christmas. What about feedback on your Ebay account. Imagine if
anyone could look at your feedback rating, at any time, to see how honest you
really are. We could all have green or red lights above our heads. Now that's
accountability! ;) Let Ebay shut down all their safeguards, security
measures, and feedback for a week and then make a new video. Ha! What would
they call the new promo?
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You are exactly right. I am both a pastor and a casual e-bayer who has bought and sold a few things, but this theme has bothered me too. Not that we should be nit-picking, but I do think it's vitally important to analyze subtle or not-so-subtle messages that culture sends us, and see if they line up with the Bible. Now if only you'd become a Republican, we could really start agreeing...(I'm kidding!) Great read,
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The central Judeo-Christian admonishment to “do unto others as one would have done unto one's self” appears to be congruent with aspects of equity theory. If my leadership behavior toward others is informed by my preferred experience of other's behavior toward myself, my behavior is likely to reflect a sense of fairness, reciprocity and equitableness. Often, such behavior will elicit from others a positive, like response. However, Christ's teaching enjoins us to act in this manner regardless of the response it evokes. For many, if not most, the Rule is " do to others as you expect them to do to you!" If one believes that others are depraved sinners that can always be relied upon to do the wrong thing, one will probably act decisively to preempt their negative impact on one's plans. If one regards others as emanations of the Godhead, sharing in the Ineffable's divinity, one is more likely to trust their potential and the quality of their motivations.
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I'm not sure what the people in my church think about my preaching this message. Without much doubt, the core will agree(at least mentally). The big question for me is: are we "totally' depraved? Is this not reformed doctrine? In the light of experience, it's hard to make this case. The Scripture says we are made in the image of God. Does that not still exist to some degree? So . . . when does a person become 'totally' depraved? Was Hitler totally depraved? Stalin? Sadaam? Evil certainly has done its work, but has it done it that 'totally'? I preach that unregenerated man is not capable of doing selfless good on a 'continuous' basis, that most times there is a selfish ulterior motive for our actions. Perhaps holding the elevator door or grabbing the guy's papers is a reflex action from the IMAGE. Maybe people remain honest because to be dishonest alienates then from society (in more ways than one)? Is not evil more insidious and covert than we think?
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I wonder if it is possible that at the back of people minds, they know that people are not necessary bad, but it is easier to live each day and to deal with people with the assumption that people are good. It has the feel good factor and maybe it is necessary to just go on each day. I suspect Pastors avoid it because they like to think that their congregations are living righteously from day to day. I hardly hear pastor talk about specific sins like pornography here in Singapore. In fact, while over here the government is thinking about allowing casino to be set up (there is none in Singapore), from churches have voiced that they are against it but pastors hardly preach about it or talk about addiction to it or even about greed. We like to assume that the person beside us in the pew have no problem with sin. Once in a while, we do get guest preacher who speaks very specifically. But it is just once in a while.
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Can I have it a little of both ways? I believe because of the fall humanity has an inherently evil nature...i.e. Sin flows naturally and we need a savior. I also believe we are created in God's image and as such have his mark on us, so although we are fallen and sinful we are capable of some good and capable of appreciating true beauty, etc. His mark on us does not redeem us, but leaves room for the undeniable good we see from some non Christians. Maybe that’s simplistic so I'll keep thinking...
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The eBay campaign is wrong—people are NOT good. However people CAN be good. People are totally depraved and mostly good at the same time. How? Because of God’s “leading Grace.” This is more than Calvin’s weak-brew “Common grace” but a powerful grace that reaches out to enable non-Christians act Christ-like. We Arminians call this “previenient Grace” and thus showing the eBay video in church is a wonderful way to give God glory for all the good in the world that HE enables by granting grace to us all “while we were yet sinners.” This leading grace of God makes humans look better than they are to that eBay assumes “people are good” because they cannot see the invisible hand of God’s grace reaching out to lost people enabling depraved humans perform Christ-like acts “on their own”—but of course it isn’t on their own at all—but by God’s (leading) grace . Run the eBay video in church this week and remind your people that every time they see an unregenerate person pick up trash or help someone push a car out of a snow bank—they are watching God’s grace at work. Praise be unto a grace-full God who extends His grace to all humans everywhere and draws them to Him. The only way a person on this planet can go to hell is if they resist this universal grace from God.
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è I think that people are good in as much as they have been told they are. If you don't cheat your buyer then ebay will tell you that you are good. If ebay has enough people who don't cheat then they might be in a place to make the generalization that "people are good." At the very least people are good for business. It all depends on perspective. If you are looking to
ebay for ultimate truth and you obey their rules then you are good. If you are looking to God however you are probably going to have a different picture of yourself.
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It seems to me that the confusion arises out of the different ways we understand the word "total" in the concept of total depravity. If it is taken to mean that men are as bad as they can be, so that there is nothing good left in them, it leaves no room for the eBay perspective. But, if by "total depravity" we mean that depravity has influenced the entire man, it would be possible for men to do good things, even though even their best deeds are stained by depravity. I hold to the latter position. Men, who are bad by nature as a result of Adam's fall, can still do good things because they are created in the Divine image. That image, though marred in every aspect by sin, remains an essential element of humanity. So we need not fault every good work done by men; we can, in fact, even affirm some actions as laudable. But we must at the same time realize that the depravity that touches every aspect of humanness will continue to degrade the person, leading him ever deeper into deception and sin. This concept is supported by the warning in scripture that "evil men and seducers will wax (grow) worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived." 2 Timothy 3:13 The "total" in total depravity cannot mean as bad as it is possible to get, otherwise there would be no way for evil men to grow worse.
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To those who doubt the depravity of
man: volunteer to teach in a 2&3 year olds SS class, you'll get the picture
right away!
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The bottom line is this: People are basically selfish.
That is what we have to understand. Even the "good" people on
Ebay generally have an ulterior motive for being good -- to make money for
themselves. While there is nothing specifically wrong with
making money, if the people were totally altruistic, they would GIVE their
things away. It is very likely that many people who sell things on Ebay
try to be trustworthy (and indeed they do act in a trustworthy manner) because
they want to have a good reputation with buyers, so the buyers will give them a
good rating, so they can in turn sell even more things to even more
people. The thing about selfishness is that it is the root of sin. God
wants us to be selfless -- meaning first
living for Him and then, as a consequence, for other people. We can't live
selflessly on our own. We need the empowering work of the Holy Spirit
living within us to enable us to live this way. Sure, we can see
isolated incidents of unregenerated people practicing random acts of kindness,
but my contention is that even these acts are rooted in the selfish nature with
which we are all born -- the nature that says "I can do it on my
own." God has made it clear that we can not do it on our
own. We need the redemptive work of Jesus Christ in our lives to change
us from living selfishly to selflessly living for Him.
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I
enjoyed the question, "Are people good." No need for entire sanctification if they are... I never could
make that The Skies Are Sunny thing work for me as a pastor. I know too
much. Is that doctrine easier to
believe and teach if you don't actually pastor your people? If you only see them smiling on Sunday morning,
can your theology start shifting toward a more optimistic version where people
only need their weekly encouragement session?
So many of the big churches have professional counselors listening to
all the crud that the pastor used to have to concern himself with. I wonder if those counselors think people
are basically good? My theory: The
only people who have that view are ones who aren't living in the "real
world." I wonder if some
pastor/CEOs are becoming spiritually irrelevant as they sip fruit coolers on
the yachts of well-heeled, self-employed businessmen and "cast the
vision" (raise major funds)for the next big project? Am I kidding? Sometimes I'm not even sure myself.
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