Responses to “let us Prey—parachurch
or parasite?”
The
AJ Thomas said...
I love that you
named names. That's awesome.
I like:
-Compassion International
-The Salvation Army (they are a sort of para-church
church)
-World Hope
-WCA
-CCLI (Some might think the term "ministry" is a stretch but I'm
blessed by not getting sued by Bill & Gloria for copyright infringement)
-Quick Study
-Alpha
-The Center for Church Effectiveness (t-net)
I don’t like:
-Peter Popoff (although he is absolutely hilarious
and I recommend his spiritual trinkets highly)
-TBN
-Benny Hinn
-Kenneth Copland (although he has a remarkable preaching style and a few good
things to say)
-Rod Parsley
I have to say though that I watch more than my fair share of these guy’s shows.
I guess it’s a sign of being a theology geek when you actually enjoy playing
spot the heresy.
…Keith Drury è “Spot the heresy” = new game show
maybe? .
The
AJ Thomas said...
Oh, I forgot to add
xxxchurch.com to my like list. I like them 50% for the ministry they do and 50%
because they aren't scared to stir the turd.
Larry said...
Zowie. Mike Wallace
couldn't have done a better expose.
I wonder how come so many of us would rather send money to a jazzy parachurch
ministry than to our boring old local church.
Maybe you could do a column on that sometime :-)
…Keith Drury è Good idea Larry.
Jack said...
Since 1977 I've
been on staff of three "parachurch" youth ministries. None are of the
name it claim it while we rip you off brand; all are ethical, desiring to serve
the Lord by reaching those outside the church to draw them into the family and
thus to church. But I concur with everything you've written (as I normally
do...which may indicate I need professional help)
Seriously, though, P T Barnum obviously got the count wrong...there are
zillions of suckers...witness the fact that Swaggart
is still in business.
But when genuine Christians get all hyper (as I'm sure some will soon leave
comments for you) that we are being "judgmental" when we name names
instead of the "Christianly acceptable" " a certain well know
ministry/minister" they indicate the spiritual immaturity of the
Body...that we ARE commanded to judge (righteous judgment) and that we write
our own standard of judgment as we judge others...
My thought...we know that we are okay in judging if it somewhat hurts us to
judge; we know we are off base is we find joy in judging.
Good words, bro. Years and years ago I worked with an IWU drama group at
…Keith Drury è wise
words in attitude/inner motivation Jack.
Jason said...
Great
post. Here's the rub: there are many people who are growing and being blessed
through these organizations. How do we approach someone who is experiencing God
through, let's say, Benny Hinn Ministries, and began
to lead them from the front of their television, out of the arena, and into a
church body? God can, and i believe is, working
through these ministries to impact those that are there searching for Him, but
how do we lead those people into an active body, where discipleship and
confession and prayer are the key elements? Just some questions i have.
…Keith Drury è You’;re right—that IS the rub… crooked preacher and even
adulterous ones often “minister to” others… good question, wish you’d answered
it.
Kevin
K. Wright said...
Perhaps one remedy
to this situation is to enlarge the corpus of texts that our ministers preach
from. When was the last time you heard a sermon from the book of Amos
condemning the "cows of
…Keith Drury è Canon within the canon?
Keith,
Loved it, man!
I believe in para-church (but with the mindset that
they are a partner with the church, not a replacement), and served on the staff
with one for a while.
Now I'm a pastor, and I still believe in these, and support them.
But I'm also one of those pastors you mentioned that have to buy clothes for
their family at second-hand shops. I'm staying anonymous because I don't want
to come across as begging here. God has been good, and while I would rather buy
those clothes new, we are certainly not destitute, and I don't need to approach
my congregation with tears and fears that my ministry will somehow be
curtailed.
…Keith Drury è partnering –that’s the model, or even “supporting?” Naughty folk in your church
sending away their tithe while you can barely buy clothes for your family.
Naughty!
disciplerw said...
while the statistics of
some of these para-churches infuriates me (and it's
VERY troublesome), i'm also troubled by the lack of
investigation by Christians into what they support. In fact, I'm dissatisfied
with the general mindset there seems to be in so many Christians of just
believing what they are presented with and not checking to see if they are
perpetuating a cycle. This is true with supporting (corrupt) ministries,
supporting (dare i say corrupt again?) government (or
at least, people in said government), and even down to forwarding FALSE e-mails
to everyone in their address book.
I know this got a little off topic, but I think that there is a root for the
people who support such ministries, and it's the same kind of people who just
believe everything that's told to them. Somewhere along the way, the idea was
presented that we are not to think because thinking leads to... what? questions? maybe some believe it is
a sign of weak faith? I'm not sure- but what it REALLY does is maintain the
status quo. I'm glad for Christians who aren't afraid to think, and for this
column, that does not try to maintain the status quo.
…Keith Drury è good
point—how responsible are
Christians for the use of the gift
once given?
disciplerw: I wonder if Christians are more gullible
than non-Christians? Are Christians more like silly sheep that are easily led
to financial slaughter--more so than unbelievers who are "the children of
darkness?" Is this a good thing or bad? JustKara
…Keith Drury è Maybe more easily moved
at least?
Just .
Jay said...
i have a very dear friend who is a total TBN
fan. a nut, even. i love her very much but i
think she just doesn't think much... which is terrible because she is very
smart. she is SO "pneumacentric" (to an
unhealthy degree, which means it is probably the wrong term to use) that she
lacks the ability to see past "the spirit." and i
REFUSE to capitalize the "s" in spirit there... i
do not believe it is truly God's Holy Spirit, i think
it is emotional.
we as people are SO hungry for shortcuts and flash
that we ignore God's plain teachings.
i wish more people thought
about what they "believe"
i like:
Billy Graham
…Keith Drury è Welcom to the family of folk who thinking Christians ought
to think more and talk less (maybe write less too, for me?
;-)
David
Drury said...
I love how ticked
off you are in this great article! You're playing the grumpier old man role in
the Kingdom much better since you grew the Grey Beard. Keep it up!
When a close friend of mine was being courted to join the staff of a Parachurch
organization I told him to think twice because while there may be some fruit to
working there it's not what should be the "love of your life." The
Bride of Christ is something tangible and I told him that parachurch
organizations are "Leah" and local churches are "Rachel."
Of course, Rachel was barren at first and then later died in childbirth and my
friend still ended up going to a Parachurch organization.
One other question = should the local church become more like parachurch orgs
(in good ways) in order to replace the "need" for them... or should
we try to communicate to people that parachurches are
not really "the church" in order to marginalize the potential
negative effects the article points out on the body of Christ?
-David Drury
…Keith Drury è Great
ideas…esp the notion about
how a local church ought to redesign itself to be more like a parachurch
organization… I’ll race you writing that one! (P.S.
The beard is white.)
Since you bring up
this great article, I'd like to point out that your parachurch
organization/school: IWU -- asked for a lot more money from me this year than
any other parachurch!
Andd I might add that many of the members of local
churches in and around that school's area give portions of their tithe to the school
instead of their local churches.
-Robbing from Peter to pay Paul
…Keith Drury è I
could not have said it better myself. Though, since IWU is wholly-owned by the
church and not technically “parachurch” your point is still well taken—just
filed under the wrong heading—re-file it under the heading “the rich raising money from the poor” and I’ll go with you on that
trip.
James
Petticrew said...
The Lord's wrath is
being revealed ... have a look at this http://www.beliefnet.com/video/humor/benny_hinn/benny_hinn2_100.ram
After watching Benny's wife "preaching" remember no matter how much
he makes, he has to go home to his darling wife and no doubt she will on
occasions offer him a, " Holy Ghost enema right up his rear end" Boy
I think she might be better theologian than her husband!
…Keith Drury è I simply did not believe it when I saw it. I
gasped, then lost my breath, then showed it to some of my colleagues who
responded likewise. I seriously
considered showing it to my Homiletics class as an example of crude language
that might possibly fly in some contexts but one never knows when somebody in
the audience is filming any more. Oh my
goodness—I can’t believe it! Incredible!
Amanda said...
Four reasons why
I'm using a Parachurch organization for an upcoming youth retreat:
1. INSURANCE/PROFESSIONALISM: I've booked an itinerate from KBM. I know that if
for some reason he can't make it, KBM will do everything possible to send a
suitable replacement. We've signed a contract; we have a plan.(A
friend of mine booked a local pastor for his event...this pastor had to back
out and now my friend is scrambling to find a replacement.)
2. EXEGETE MY STUDENTS: I've hired an itinerant who has spoken to thousands of
students--each with his and her own background. He knows from first hand
experience that there are no cookie-cutter youth groups. I've been sending him
info on my students for the past month...he's studying these student
profiles...it's his job.
3. ACCESSIBLE MARKETING: KBM has sent me CD's and DVD's of various itinerates
and their messages. I got to choose a sermon that would be appropriate for my
students and where they are at in their Christian walk (Suggestion to KBM: put
up short MP3 snippets of sermons on-line...it's easy).
4. BONUS PERSON: KBM asked if a minister-in-training could accompany the itinerate (at KBM's expense).
I'm thrilled that I'll have another woman leader at this retreat.
That's not to say that a local pastor could not fulfill the above benefits, but
it is very nice to hire a company to take care of the details...
Amanda Drury
…Keith Drury è Yeah,
IWU just finished it’s Winter
Who is watching the
watchers?
I found a statement by Grace to You
enlightening. In my mind this statement highlights problems with those
analyzing churches and ministries. Barna's statistics
are another form of "ministry analysis" that seems questionable and
subject to little accountability for its "results." One wonders what www.MinistryWatch.com would have said about the use of expensive
perfume to wash Jesus' feet. Maybe a One Star for efficiency even though
Scripture rates it a Five Star for kingdom purposes.
It should throw some caution into the emerging ministry of church analysis and
hopefully present a counter-balance to the impression given in the article.
Kingdom Building Ministries may not be as inefficient as Keith's article
implies.
Here is the link to John MacArthur's Grace
to You ministry statement. Whether you like him or not MacArthur is not shy
of confrontation. Grace To You
…Keith Drury è Yeah, for movies or ministries a 1-2-3-4-5
star system does not say it all. I don’t
know ministrywatch.com’s system for ranking
“efficiency” well enough to defend or criticize them. I just wish they would either revise their
system so organizations like KMB looked better, or KBM would do whatever it
takes to not appear in the lowest 1% of their ratings. I have served twice on KBM’s
board of directors and don’t understand why it appears so low—either the
ratings system is unfair to them somehow or something else is weird—I just
don’t know but it is embarrassing for them and me—I like the KBM folk and know
many of them and can’t imagine why they appear near the bottom of the list of
hundreds. I do oknow this—though TBN and others
appear higher on the “efficiency list” KBM is above reproach on the handling
money list. I just wish they’d climb up
higher on the efficiency list—after all, too many parachurch prganizations spend most of their time raising money to
raise money—and that low a rating makes KBM look like such an
organization. Perhaps they are in talks
with ministrywatch.com even now.
Siarlys
Jenkins said...
You said it all.
You obviously know the facts, and you make complete sense, humanly and
Biblically. What more can I add? Excellent work!
Sniper said...
Why does it seem
like parachurch has been very narrowly defined in this post. Almost all the
parachurch ministries we are attacking are televangelist driven personality
loaded ministries. I think this post should have been titled
"Televangelists Suck." I thought I was going to be reading about the
bad and good of the YMCA, Coffee House type ministries, local youth centers,
that kinda stuff. This isn't about parachurches,
this is about personalities on tv that pervert the
gospel.
…Keith Drury è Yep I
took the easy shots—the ones who got me angry. Parachurch is defined clearly in
JustKara said...
Sniper, you are
right that Drury picked on the easy targets--those parachurch organizations
that "prey" the most. I too would like to hear what he'd say about
the over all issue of para-church organizations and
the church. As for us here we have pretty much decided most of them have it
backwards--instead of contributing to the church they draw out of the church
and give little back while bragging that they are better than us. I hope he
addresses this in the future.
Benny Hinn is so foolish he's an easy target. It will
be harder to challenge the more popular parachurch organizations--but somebody
needs to do it eventually--in the opinion of all our pastoral staff here,
parachurch organizations do far more taking from the church than giving
to it. -JustKara
…Keith Drury è I’ve seen some take, some give, and others
give and take. Same
for local churches. ;-)
Amanda said...
I like that Drury
distinguished the easy targets from the parachurch ministries he respected.
I'm not comfortable dismissing parachurch ministry. The New Testament sets a
pretty good precedent for itinerate ministry...
The role of an itinerate minister working through a parachurch organization is
to come along side of a local church and offer support...I'm thrilled to have a
voice other than my own spreading the Gospel to my students.
I have no problem donating money to parachurch organizations in addition to my
tithe to my local church...I've certainly received more from parachurch
organizations than I've given.
Amanda Drury
…Keith Drury è Good
issue to deal with separately—the “tithe belonging to the local church.” I
like the idea of a “tithe” and I like the notion of it going to the local
church. Even though I
cannot support my opinion very well from Scripture.
Would John Wesley
watch TBN?
Last year during Lent, I became so offended by TBN that I started watching the
Catholic channel EWTN. Look past the veneration of Mary & the Pope and
you'll discover that EWTN presents Christ & the gospel in a profound way.
For years, we evangelicals condemned “those Catholics” for leading souls
astray, even to hell! However, I fear that TBN has done far more damage to the
cause of Christ than Catholics ever have. TBN’s
flamboyant preachers often teach cheap grace and many destructive heresies. If
John Wesley were alive today, I suspect that he’d change the channel too!
EWTN is a media para-church with an extreme view of
the need for a local church. By contrast, TBN is a media parasite with a
diminished view of the need for a local pastor or church. However, the worst
media parasite is Mr. Harold Camping and Family Radio! He condemns all local
churches as apostate and commands his listeners to leave the church. Just
forget the church and the sacraments; all you need is a Bible and Family Radio.
Yeah sure! Just remember, John Wesley loved the church and lived and died an
Anglican priest. In fact, Wesley started para-church
“class meetings” that ultimately called people back to the church that he
loved.
-- A Wesleyan pastor who loves the local church.
…Keith Drury è What the dickens is going on? Everywhere I turn I see this. I was raised in a strong anti-Catholic church
but this is no longer so—evangelicals seem closer to Roman Catholics than
mainline Protestants now. Curious. (It is OK
with me—I was here first—but I am surprised to not be alone any more.)
drinkdp said...
Good article.... I
happen to serve a Director of a non-profit group ( www.love-cc.org ) and we are a para-church
that works to network funding for the poor. Our model "gives back"
and serves local church - not taking volunteers or $ away - but networks with
the church to assist low-income families. Rev. Rick Carder
…Keith Drury è Good
report Carder. Great
hearing from ya!
Appreciate the
post. Must admit I was quite clueless that some of that went on as much as it
does. It is so sad to consider the inequities, but they are all over the place
in many arenas. What to make of it? Popular Christian authors are raking in the
cash while pastors of small rural congregations are barely making it, some
Christian speakers make $20,000 to speak for 20 minutes and on the other hand
you have worthwhile parachurch ministries cutting needed staff because of a
lack of funding. I don't know the answer but I see the inequities...maybe
different people are called to different callings and different lifestyles and
that is up to God? Don't know - just trying to think.
I like Generous Giving, CFPN, Reflections, and FCCI/Christ@Work
- all of which I believe add value to the local church.
…Keith Drury è interesting point—the “inequities” the
rich/poor in organizations and leaders. Rich Christians while others
suffer. Yes, yes, yes, all good issues
to think about.
Reading this first
thing this morning kept me thinking about it all day and I realized I missed
the boat... the point is not inequities - that is a whole other issue - but the
point is people misusing God's money and taking money away from legitimate
kingdom causes/churches. You are right that is angering, sad and a reminder to
me to want to use God's money appropriately.
…Keith Drury èOk you revised your remarks… emphasizing the
diversion of funds. Me too.
Good comments, I
particularly like what you said about taking the whole "seed faith"
thing too far. Years ago, had people in our congregation giving money in the
collection plate that should have been used to pay their bills, hoping that God
would do some kind of miracle. We had to counter this whole line of teaching
and provide financial help for these folks because of that type of teaching.
…Keith Drury è I think “seed faith” may be true—it just is
unethical to use as a fund-raising gimmick.
Siarlys
Jenkins said...
After reading these
comments a little more, I have to admit that "Who is Watching
the Watchers?" is a good question. Jesus and the 12 disciples would not
have come out very well on an annual report. On the other hand, they could
carry their financial assets in a little leather bag, which presumably had a
good deal less than 30 pieces of silver in it. (Otherwise, Judas could have
just taken the money and run, without the necessity of betrayal). The best way
to know a ministry is to be directly involved, with time, and then also give
money. But the more real estate, the bigger the savings accounts, the larger
the number of donors, the more paid staff there are... the more there needs to
be formal accountability.
…Keith Drury è Excellent point Siarlys—the
larger the enterprise (and
perhaps the further away from the giver, as many parachurch orgs. vs. local
churches?) the
greater need for public accountability.
I don't think that
it is fair to equate IWU with a ministry like TBN. After all the person who
wrote that is probably an IWU alumni, so what would you expect but for them to
ask their alumns for money. But I do have a problem,
since IWU was brought up, with IWU raising rent, tuition and other costs on the
student and at the same time publishing the exciting news of getting a lily
endowment for $50 million. I know they would say that the money is focused on
building and growth but come on...as for me, well if I ever start to make
decent money it will go to my seminary who try to keep the cost of tuition down
as best as they can. IWU was a great school to attend but as it is now they
don't need another dime of my money
…Keith Drury è An organizations or
institutions (Church, parachurch, educational institution, denomination,
missions boards, missionaries etc.) have to walk a fine line in fund
raising. It is hard for a district to
extract money from local churches to pay the DS more than the pastor in the
local church. Same for headquarters,
Missionaries (when benefits are included) or Faculty or IWU… yep, it is a fine
line to walk…. It is unseemly to pressure poor churches and poor people to
sacrifice for the rich and wealthy (comparatively). Some fund-raisers are very sensitive to this
while others even try to suck the poor dry. I ought to some day deal with the
ethics of fund-raising (loach church or IWU or the denominational tax system)…
I ought to, hope I remember to….
END OF RESPONSES
January 28, 2006