Thank you, Dr. Drury, for
reminding us why r-e-s-p-e-c-t is due the boomers--Lest we forget....
JohnLDrury said...
Numbers 5 and 9 were good
reminders. The short hisory of youth ministry is something
we should never take for granted. And despite their pragmaticism
that creates suspicion for certain forms of graduate education, they certainly
opened the door to an emphasis on learning that is now exploding in my
generation. Thanks boomers!
Oh that you will only now take us out to coffee and play XBox
with us ;-)
Another
great article that brings balance to the discussion. I have a few questions:
1) Would you consider writing something about the "senior"
generation? They're still around, though not as involved as they once were.
What were their successes, contributions and mis-steps?
2) Do you consider church planting to be the most viable option for emergents?
(Personally, I don't think there are a lot of traditional or contemporary
churches that are going to make the kind of concessions that emergents are
looking for, and most of us don't want to waste our lives and ministry in
conflict over church practices). Or should we all tough it out the way the
boomers did and lead a generation in change against their will? Maybe that's
what leadership is all about...
Keith,
I thought you might enjoy this laugh. I pointed someone at another discussion
site to one of your articles.
He made the following post, "After reading the articles on his site, I see
that he is VERY resistant to change."
I questioned his location in the universe.
Rod
Larry said...
Thanks, Keith. We Boomers like
you too ;-)
The reason we work so hard? We've always had to
compete. From the time we entered kindgergarten,
there were always two more kids than there were chairs in the room ... we had
to hustle.
Maybe the emerging generation can teach us to slow down.
Adam said...
your words are wise. i respect so much your ability to
see the good in two different generations. it makes me
feel like we are on the same team as the boomers and that it is important that
we not give up on one another.
Ryan Budde said...
These words of thanks are long
overdue from all of us. Every young generation that grabs hold of a severe
passion for God thinks that they have the answers the older generation has been
missing. It really is more of a logical fact that a generation will focus on a
different aspect of the adventure we are on with God, leading us to the next
generational focus. It's not that boomers
(moderns...pre-postmoderns...whatever) are way off in
heart or in spirit, they just don't relate to the newer generation's style, and
truly can't see things the way the emergents do. Thanks go out to all the
boomers who have blazed the trail. May we faithfully carry the torch at the trailblazing
goes on through us, and may the path we follow be well-lit by the Word of God.
Ryan
centuri0n said...
Dr. Drury said:
5. You’ve emphasized education.
When you took over, the church was suspicious of education and actually warned
young people, “Don’t get too much education or you’ll lose your faith.” The laity (and even some denominational leaders) enjoyed saying,
“After college some go on to cemetery… whoops, I mean seminary.” They
thought that was a wonderfully cute joke. You changed all that. Now we realize
that a trade school grad just can’t manage the complex operation of a sprawling
local church where the board includes people with all kinds of advanced
degrees. You made education important and you supported it—especially anteing
up the funds for your own kids to get a quality education even though most
boomers paid their own way through college. I admire that and you are owed
thanks from you own kids at least, and really the entire generation.
I think this is an interesting assertion/compliment in the context of the kudos
handed out last week to the Emergents.
I'd be interested in the definition of this word "education" and why
it is a credit to the "boomers" for advancing this as a virtue.
It's ironic that the comment
above mine (at least as I began typing) sort of questioned the whole education
as a virtue thing. While I agreed with probably 90% of Keith's article, I
question the wisdom of more and more foraml education
being expected and required. I am age-wise (44) a very young boomer or an old
part of the next generation (sorry, I don't remember the teminology
-- maybe it's due to my advanced age). But it seems to me that requiring more
and more formal education in areas basically unrelated to fields of
study/career is simply playing into the world's system.
Looking at this from a church's perspective, I don't care if my church's pastor
knows algebra or geometry. Yet those things are often required in order to get
into college and or/seminary.
We rush to make our Christian schools meet accreditation requirements, but who
sets those requirements? The secular education establishment.
Maybe the pastors dealing with board members or building committee members who
have master's degrees is solved best not by requiring pastors to have similar
knowledge in secular fields, but by reliving pastors of the administrative work
they often have to do that is outside of their areas of expertise.
Personally, I still use the "cemetary-er-seminary"
line because it often seems appropriate to me.
I agree,
education is over-rated. I learned more my first month after college than I ever learned
the four years of college. And I have had little use whatsoever for theology,
church history, and 90% of my Bible cours4es (where they made me write an
exegesis paper as if that was an important skill of pastoring)--
I only had a few courses that actually related to what the pstorate
is like.
I'd be happy to go back to unaccredited Bible school training. Better still,
I’d be happy to take good ol’ laymen in the church
and meet with them one evening a week for a few years and I’d bet I’ll produce
a better pastor than a college or cemetery would. Denominations are headed the
wrong way to expect more education—they should be looking at the gifts and
graces of people and ordaining the lay people most gifted to lead—just like St.
Paul did. Drury might be right that the boomers introduced (at least in HIS
denomination) an emphasis on “more education” but I personally think it is
over-rated and this is one of the things the boomers did that was a mistake.
SETH
PS I'm not knocking the whole article--it was good and I appreciate the
insights, I just think education is basically a waste of time for learning the
actual skills we need in the ministry.
Seth,
You said, "I have had little use whatsoever for theology, church history,
and 90% of my Bible courses."
Are you saying that your courses in these areas were terribly inadequate or
that you find little application for these subject areas as a pastor?
A person without training in theology, church history and exegesis has no
business leading a Bible study much less pastoring a church.
The purpose of an education is not to prepare a person to do a job. The purpose
of an education is much bigger than that.
"For the sole true end of education is simply this: to teach men how to
learn for themselves; and whatever instruction fails to do this is effort spent
in vain."
Dorothy Sayers, The Lost Tools of Learning
"Education isn’t how much you have committed to memory, or even how much
you know. It’s being able to differentiate between what you do know and what
you don’t."
Anatole
A pastor who sees theology as unrelated to his
responsibility is heresy just waiting to happen.
Rod
Great column - I didn't
realize how much I needed to be liked until I read it! But one thing bothers
me: As a 50-year-old woman who was just ordained last year, it's disheartening
to read that it's now my job to hand over the reins of "power." Back
in the day when I was 25, few women went to seminary and even fewer had a hope
of a chance of getting to pastor. So now that I have been freed to answer the
call, am I really over the hill? I sure don't feel that way -- maybe it's my
boomer ability to work hard! I hope you don't mind if I keep on pastoring and
not start looking for pasture for myself just yet.
Keith.Drury said...
Sue, remind me sometimes to
post a column on the "life pattern" of many women in ministry as
compared to men... my observation will be that their arc hits it peak somewhere
in the 60's while men often hit that peak a decade before--so I'd probably say
that the handover may be delayed a decade or so for women--YET on the other
hand there is a wonderful crowd of younger women coming along.... --Keith
The question I would ask after
the Boomer influence has been felt is this? Is the portion of the Kingdom in
the
All those things that seem like progress or improvement-whether larger church
size, more polish, more articulate communication, etc--really don't count for
much of eternal profit unless the Kingdom territory we occupy is healthier.
I'm just not so sure and quite honestly, I'm ready to give the emergents a
chance to redirect. However, I don't think the Boomers who ran the show up to
the present are willing to relinquish their control without a whole lot of
resistance. I hope I'm mistaken.
Call me thankful for change but concerned about the concepts of leadership that
have more to do with celebrity than sacrifice. By the way, I'm a tail-end
Boomer, I guess, but I don't really fit your stereotypes very well. :)
Dean
I think the kingdom is better
off. Every innovation that has served the kingdom has the potential for abuse
or eventual ineffectiveness, whether it is circumcision, the law, faith not
works, congregation singing: the return, Sunday School, Sunday night service,
praise choruses, seeker sensitive movement, . . .
I think the biggest contribution the Boomers have left the church is a renewed
emphasis on reaching the lost. For all that I sometimes don't like about Boomer
worship, the fact of the matter is they helped us realize the need for
culturally relevant outreach. Which incidentally is not a new idea - check the
N.T. out sometimes. Yes, many boomers have settled into the seat of power and
are resisting change, but if they had not instituted such a large scale pardigm shift us Gen Xers,
Emergents, pre-post-moderns, one-eyed newts, whatevers,
might not the motivation created by the successful example before us.
Rev. C. S. Roberts said...
Drury wrote:
"When Peters & Waterman published In Search of Excellence in 1978 you
were already at work reinventing the church from a “down-home anybody-can-sing
laughable karaoke service” to a first class experience. You did away with
cheap, second-rate, tacky and brought the church’s
worship and administration into modern times. I admire you for that. The high
quality sound systems, buildings and colleges we now have are a credit to your
values."
The church doesn't need "reinventing." The Church is always
"relevant." Of course this below quote says the same thing.
Drury wrote:
"You’ve seriously tried to communicate the gospel in every format to reach
“this present age.”"
There is a price to the pragmatism. And as a young pastor I am suffering the
consequences after the boomers are gone. I am expected to do this relativism
with programs and gimmicks.
Am I thankful for some of the work of the boomers. To be sure.
As we celebrated MLK Day on Monday we should remember the remarkable progress
made in such a short time in regards to race relations )and relations with
other minorities as well). But I am not thankful for the pragmatic model of the
boomers. I would rather have the simple old fashion orthodoxy of my grandparents age... but then maybe I don't know what I am
asking.
I guess I am also saying I would rather have Billy Graham than Rick Warren.
Further Drury refered to the
"job" of pastor at the top. This vocatin
is not a "job" it is a "calling." I didn't get into
ministry for a job, if I wanted that I would have gotten an MBA instead of an M.Div.
CSR: Drury doesn't have to
defend himself on using the term "job" instead of "Calling"
-- his book "Call of a lifetime" is the strongest exposition of
"the call" and may be the hardest-hitting high view of the call that
any Protestant has ever published. But your comments on adding racial reconciliation
are excellent--he should have mentioned that in his list. Also the exposure and
punishment of sexual abuse and spousal violence--all these are Boomenrs contributions and deserve to be on the list too
Fred
Just .
Jay said...
I really liked these. The
Emergents meant more to me than the Boomers
one, but that's because I am 30.
A request which you never have to do if you think it is a dumb idea....
Maybe you could do the same type of open letter to some of the
denominations? Baptists, Wesleyans, Presbyterians, whoever
you want.
Listing your likes and warnings, etc.
Just an idea.
Keith.Drury said...
Just.Jay: GREAT idea... what I admire
about Nazarenes, presbyterians, Charismatics,
Quakers... You bet! I've made a note... I'll do one from time to time...
--Keith
Wonder what your Dad would
have to say about this boomer generation, I'm not sure he would agree with you
thoughts. I still love to hear the old hymns of the church. I believe that
we've forgotten the cost of our salvation. It was the blood Jesus. We don't
sing about this much anymore. I still love the little country church where
there is less then 100. The mega church is not for me. I believe that if we
were praying and reading the Bible more instead of going to the movies (King
Kong),dances and the other that you mention in the one sentence that we would
see the a greater outpouring of God's Spirit in our Churches. We need more of
God not more of self desire.
Octorfunk said...
Is there any particular reason
(besides the fact that you think Barna is a "theological
idiot") that you won't even allow responses to your post regarding his
book Revolution? To me, that is exactly the kind of close-minded thinking that
gives people a poor impression of the church. There are lots of people I don't
agree with, but I don't call them idiots and then refuse to listen to anyone
else's opinions.
Just .
Jay said...
anonymous no-name said --->
"I believe that if we were praying and reading the Bible more instead of
going to the movies (King Kong),dances and the other that you mention in the
one sentence that we would see the a greater outpouring of God's Spirit in our
Churches"
I say ---> NO WAY. that's too simple. you talk about reading our bibles, well, the outpuring of God's spirit is up to God. Salvation and His Spirit
are things that are completely apart and other than us. The Hebrews, when
pinned between Pharoa's army and the
i am not arguing that we
should NOT read our bibles more, we absolutely should... but that argument is
too simple and holds no water. and i
saw King Kong and found time to go through the entire New Testament twice in
the past few months and am now going through the OT. so
be careful about pointing your anonymous finger. (of
course now i need to be careful)
Jason said...
To the boomers (at least the
ones reading this post), I want to also thank you:
1) You believed and do believe in students like me. It takes a lot of faith,
courage, and wisdom to see leadership in youth, and that can be a huge gamble.
Amidst the mistakes we make, the messages we stumble over, and the times we are
typical spoiled brats who just don't get it, you haven't given up on us. My
entire focus on ministry is because one (actually more than one) of you
believed in me, and took me beyond self-doubt to a point in which I actually
see myself succeeding. Thank you for your guidance.
May my generation not forget the lessons you have left us, and also to turn to
you for wisdom, guidance, and encouragement.
-Jason Farrell
Octorfunk said...
I can understand not wanting
to open other unrepresented sources up for criticism on your page, but that's
not the reason you gave on your site. You said it was because Barna's book was heresy, and "I refuse to give space to
anyone who might see any redeeming qualities in flat out heresy." Your
proclamation of heresy on Barna's book and anyone who
sees any redeeming qualities in it is more than a little close-minded, and as a
fellow believer seeking God's desire for the church, more than a little
offensive.
Keith Drury
winds up
Thanks for the responses both
weeks.
In answer to some of the
questions posted:
·
Maybe…I might
eventually write something about Seniors too—maybe.
·
Yes…I think Church
planting is a good option for emergents, though with “venue worship” that can
now be done in an existing church increasingly.
·
Of course I
believe in education—it is what I do ;-)
·
I ought to address
the “Women in ministry life pattern” which is delayed a decade or more from
males so the handoff is different.
·
Dean asks the
best questions—is the church in better health today After Boomers. I think in some ways yes and in other ways no.
ON average I think it is worse off
frankly, but I was trying to be nice to boomers this week—after all I’ve spent
most of my writing career critiquing them.
·
And thanks for
the idea to write a “What I like about…” series including what I like about Baptist,
Nazarenes, Catholics, etc. Great idea—I have
it on my wall now.
Keith
Drury