Does a
gathering of individual Christians make a collective
Part of the problem in the debate between communitarians and individualists is that it remains solely on the sociological plane. The missing piece to the puzzle is the very center of church life itself: Jesus Christ. The debate will go on in perpetuity as long as it remains a struggle between two foci. But when a third point is added, a triangle is formed and a more rich discussion can follow.
So then, how do the Church, the Christian and Christ relate?
The classic way to formulate the basic options was put forth by Schleiermacher (19th Cen). He put it in terms of a contrast between the Protestant and Catholic ecclesiological principles (Christian Faith 103-108):
The Protestant principle is that the relationship between the Christian and the Church depends on the Christian's relationship to Christ.
The Catholic principle is that the relationship between the Christian and Christ depends on the Christian's relationship to Church.
Of course, this leads us into a whole other web of problems. Which principle gives pride of place to Christ? Which principle avoids the perils of the extremes? Are these principles adequate descriptions of the Protestant/Catholic difference? How do we acknowledge both the freedom of Christ and the indispensability of the Church? Is there a way to synthesize the principles? Is there a third option? But at least they are properly theological problems and therefore we might be able to get somewhere. In other words, a good ecclesiology must deal in Christological currency.
Although I enjoy being provocative, it seems appropriate to at least sketch the beginnings of my own solution to this basis ecclesiological problem. I would recommend that we navigate Schleiermacher’s triangle by means of the concept of mission. My inspiration here is von Balthasar, who outlines a missional concept of theological personhood in his Theo-Drama vol. III. Balthasar’s advance is that our personhood is grounded neither in our individual Christianity nor our participation in the community of the Church as such, but rather in the fulfillment of our mission. We are sent by God. This is who we are, both as individual Christians and as a communal Church. Balthasar gives the example of Paul, who as an individual missionary was on the periphery of the church and yet served the church precisely in his peripheral mission. He notes rightly that individualism and communitarianism coincide for Paul, especially when he reflects on his suffering for the church (e.g., Colossians 2).
Here’s how one might render Balthasar’s insight in terms of Schleiermacher’s triangle:
The Missional principle is that the Christian's relationship to both Christ and the Church depends on her participation in the mission to which Christ sends the Church.
My hope is that this way of putting things will keep the
Christian and the Church in proper balance as they subsist in the one mission
of Christ. This certainly doesn’t solve all the problems, but it may help to
reframe it in a fruitful way.
Any thoughts?
Any communitarians or individualists out there who want to take me to task?
Any objections to Schleiermacher’s way of Christologizing the problem?
Any suggestions toward a missional solution to these
problems?
At 11:26 PM, October 06, 2005, millinerd said...
Interesting. Noll's recent
book comes to mind which says (and I paraphrase), "For
Catholics the church is comprised of individuals, for Protestants individuals
comprise the church."
At 12:26 AM, October 07, 2005, pk said...
I love the way you unpacked everything in the end
in terms of mission. It resonates with me.
But then more questions rise to the surface. To whom do we grant the authority
to identify what Christ's mission for the Church is? Who sets the parameters
that are the unifying force? Will the Church identify the mission or is that up
to each individual?
And then you're right back where you started!?
At 9:44 AM, October 07, 2005, JohnLDrury said...
millinerd,
that's a great restatement of Schleiermacher's
thesis. do think it is a fair description? or is it way off?
At 9:47 AM, October 07, 2005, JohnLDrury said...
pk,
great questions! authority issues are right around the
corner, and thus there are more 'protestant' ways and more 'catholic' ways of
answering your question. The missional principle only provides a certain formal
ecumenical unity for answering the basic question. How it plays out will still
have major differences accross christian communions.
How should it play out?
What do you think?
At 12:51 PM, October 07, 2005, Samuel Bills said...
One...not really
Holy...Maybe on our best days
Catholic...they're cool
Apostolic...well - naturally
Great words John! An ecclesiology centered on mission offers an ecumenical hope
I think.
At 1:36 PM, October 07, 2005, Just . Jay said...
I think Christ makes Christians, and at that point
you are a part of The Church whether you know it or not... or whether you LIKE
it or not :) If you are a follower of Christ, I guess that makes you a
Christian. Not any affiliations to any churches.
that of course is the super-simplified answer of the
overarching term *Christian*
But... that doesn't really answer the question, does it :)
"Do Christians make the Church or does the Church make Christians?"
this question is really about the definition of "church" and whether
you are using a capital or a lowercase "C" or not, isn't it? I think
the bigger question in this post are really important.
If affiliation to "a church" makes you a Christian, then it is just
organized religion (in the negative connotation Schenck
mentioned in one of his posts). If affiliation with THE Chirch
makes you a Christian, then it is a commune-style rotary club.
In my mind The Church is an entity that exists because some of us knuckle-heads
accepted the "come follow me" of Jesus in various ways. THE Church is
Christ's body, and membership to A church (although an important topic) is
almost irrelevant as far as being a Christian by definition goes.
Who has authority, Catholic/Protestant definitions of church, Christ's mission
for the church... VERY important topics
i just thought i'd go back
to the basics and answer the question in the only way that makes the splitting
of hairs any fun for me :) if JESUS doesn't make me a Christian, well, I'm not
interested. Where to go from there in regards to The Church and whether 5
Christians who meet together on a regualr basis
equals a church -- that's something i look forward to
you all discussing!
At 2:58 PM, October 07, 2005, pk said...
My rough thoughts:
In 300AD the Church made Christians. And that made sense because there was only
In 2005 Christians make the Church. And I hope and pray that we do so missionally in the spirit of Christ as you have propesed John.
As far as authority, I didn't make this up but I'm a fan of the layers of
authority that are placed over me. First my local church, then the general
church, then the global church, then the historical church. Each
one having a voice into what I believe the church to be and how I live that out
in community.
At 3:35 PM, October 07, 2005, ben said...
I like it John.
I was reading a reflection this week that talked about planting churches,
building community and doing mission. The premise was basically that in
practice, those who start a church seeking to build a community will never get
around to mission. But those who start by doing mission have a chance of
building community in the process.
I wonder if "mission" and "kingdom" language are pretty synonomous here. If that is the case, what makes us Kingdom
inhabitants--a declaration of Christ's Lordship, or participation in the
Perhaps we become part of Christ's (already and not yet) Kingdom (participants
of the mission) first, then, because we are on this earth and Christ's earthly body(community) is the Church, we also become part of the
Church.
Maybe, though, the first/then sequence is not ontological, but teleological. We
will always be members of the Kingdom/Mission, but we will not always be the
Church. The Church cannot be understood outside of the Kingdom/Mission but the
Kingdom/Mission can be understood outside of the Church.
So I think I am a qualified missiological individualist . . . participants of
the Kingdom/Mission make up the Church, but these participants or
"Christians" only have their identity in the Kingdom/Mission, and
ultimately, that Kingdom's Lord.
Thanks John, it's clear as mud now.
ben price
At 9:59 AM, October 08, 2005, Keith.Drury said...
Perhaps Protestants answer the title question by
asking the null questions: “Can we conceive of a church without
Christians?” And, “Can we conceive of a Christian without a church?”
Thanks for letting Schleiermacher speak adding his
triangulation approach that brings Christ into the model—not a bad idea for a Christian
theology ;-)… also thanks for channeling HVB’s
turning the question inside out toward mission--helpful, perticularly
among so-called emerging churches.
As you might expect though I’m interested in seeing the diagram
of this model—what it “looks” like on the whiteboard.
At 11:41 AM, October 08, 2005, JohnLDrury said...
re: diagram - I have 'em but I am such a blog newbie
that I can't figure out how to put them up without formating
problems
j
At 5:59 PM, October 09, 2005, Ken Schenck said...
I as you do not think that we are in any way
restricted to biblical images or categories. Nevertheless, you'll understand
that I gravitate to the models of 1 Corinthians, on the one hand, and
Colossians/Ephesians on the other.
1 Corinthians: the body of Christ is made up of all Christians who
possess the Spirit of God. We are simultaneously "in Christ" and
Christ is "in us." But the most meaningful sense of us being the
Colossians/Ephesians: The body is now the church, with Christ as the
head and us as the body. Only in connection with the head is there a church,
and the head is the source of the body and provides its nourishment.
So building off Ephesians, it is only Christians in connection to Christ that
become the church. And finagling Corinthians a little, it is only the Spirit of
the church that allows for the Spirit in the individual Christian.
Oh well, I tried...
At 10:24 AM, October 10, 2005, JohnLDrury said...
Ken,
Great way to frame the debate in terms of different biblical emphases. I like
doing that with all discussions.
One question: Is the Spirit in Corinthians the Spirit of the Church or the
Spirit of Christ/the Lord. It seems like the latter to me (I Cor 12, 2 Cor 3). If so, then
maybe Corinthian body language can bit fit into the Col/Eph head language. Just a thought.
However we construe it, there has to be a way to unite the individual and the
community in a way that neither is treated as ancillary to the whole. Both of Schleiermacher principles can fall into this trap by making
one relationship secondary and dependent on the other. The mission thing may
help, but the problem remains: how to make all the parts truly united.
At 11:24 AM, October 10, 2005, Ken Schenck said...
I agree that the church does not enter into the 1
Corinthians imagery--Paul does not yet use the word church in this way
yet, in my opinion (depending on how you date and interpret Gal. 1:13, I
suppose).
I like this interdependence model you are working with--it reminds me of the
way Paul can say we are in Christ and yet Christ is in
you (although a plural "you"). We are in the church and yet the
church is in us, plural.
At 5:24 AM, October 12, 2005, Wandering Jew said...
1 Cor 12 & Rom 12
gives us plenty of clues as to how the body came to be. 1 Cor
12:27, "Now ye [the corporate body] are the body of Christ, and members
[individual members] in particular." This sums it up nicely. We are not
one [communitarian] or the other [individualist], we are both. But those terms
are also rather artificial and mechanical and remind one of socialism vs captialism or the left vs the right politically. The body is to have no such schisms(1Cor
It is important to note that the term "member" never refers to a
'come and join our club and pay your subs' type of membership, which appears to
be the prevalent false doctrine or tradition in all forms of institutional type
church today. It is also important to note that there are no
"Catholics" or "Protestants" in the bible.
There is only one way to be a "member" of the body of Christ, and it
is not something one just decides to go and do. 1. " . . .Ye must be born again."(John 3:7)
and 2. "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the
flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
It is important to remember that profession of the Lord's name is not enough
either, "Many will say to me in that day Lord, Lord . . . and then will I
profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work
iniquity." (Matt 7:22-23) "Thou believest
that there is one God; thou doest well, the devils also believe, and
tremble." (Jas 2:19).
When someone is born again, baptised in the Spirit,
holds correct doctrine, and obeys the voice of the Spirit, then they ought not
to have any problems. But often, because of that very thing, that is where the
problems start. Particularly if that believer has a gift that is not recognised or encouraged, such as an apostle, or prophet,
or other revelatory gift.
This is because most churches only recognise a pastor
(or variation thereof) as the head 'shabang' instead
of Jesus Christ like the bible says. Some of these other gifts have a major
part to play in the leadership and direction of the body, but one gift, which,
by the way, comes about third or fourth on the list, does all the governing in
its limited capacity. Often, it does not have the insight that these other
gifts may have by the Holy Ghost. Some reject the work and ministry of the Holy
Ghost altogether. There is often no discerment
whatsoever regarding these matters and many actually grieve the Spirit.
But church folk are so often too dull and carnal to know that anything is
amiss, even if it came up and bit them on the nose they wouldn't get it. But
those that do discern, that do see, are often a minority or lone voice that
never gets heard, and so they fade away into isolation. Then you end up with
the situation spoken of by Paul in 1 Cor
Believers are first to take care of their individual walk with the Lord, and
then there fellowship with the rest of the body should automatically follow.
Christ, by the Holy Ghost, promised to teach all believers. Indeed, they are to
"try the spirits whether they are of God." (1John 4:1) " . . .
ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie,
and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." (1 John 2:27) " . . . the Holy Ghost . . . he shall teach you all
things, and bring all things to your rememberance,
whatsoever I have said unto you." (John 14:26)
One thing professing Christians seem to have great difficulty in accepting is
this, "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of
God." Many reject this being led of the Spirit and that's when you get
religion and institutionalisation etc.
So, Christ centered, Holy Ghost led fellowship always draws the members
together, " . . . even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined
together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth,
according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in
love." (Eph 4:15-16). Then we go back to Rom 12:3 and following, and also
1 Cor 12 etc, to see how that "measure of every
part" is worked out. It has to be by the leading and unction of the Holy
Ghost, not man's leadership, otherwise it plain just doesn't work.
That is what John 15:1-10 is all about.